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Sep 13 07 8:46 AM

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A couple of hypothetical questions:

Your story features both a hero and a villain that turn into monsters. One of them(the hero) happens to turn into a slightly-draconic dinosaur kind of monster.

What is cooler? A "dragon" or a phoenix? This has been a long inner debate of mine, since the hero shares so many characteristics with both mythical beasts. He does rise from the ashes of his own demise at one point, and I'd intended to have him evolve into a phoenix in a later story. But then, it might be a lot cooler if he was a phoenix to begin with, or perhaps died back in the Cretaceous, and rises as a phoenix in modern times. What do y'all think?

Grr. Have I asked this before on these forums? I've spent so long just trying to get this damn story finished it's hard to recall anything.

Anyone with a love of legendary beasts and epic heroes have some input? Anyone at all, anyone? Bueller?
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8281220

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#1 [url]

Sep 13 07 8:52 AM

What does the bad guy turn into?

Dragons are cool but a phoenix isn't widely used and could probably be portrayed as exceptionally cool. Bigest issue of course was the bird in the potter series. Make a creature that's better than that and you're set.

"Talent is cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work." - Stephen King

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fiction

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#2 [url]

Sep 13 07 11:26 AM

I think the idea of your hero turning into a phoenix is pretty cool fictionfactor/cool.gif

Dragons have been so overdone in recent years that the phoenix is a little different and a little more original (I can't believe I just said that - I love dragons!) But it's true.

So what does your villain become??

Lee

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#3 [url]

Sep 13 07 10:50 PM

Okay, here's a quick rundown:

The hero is a two-part one: part-spirit, of a dinosaur King of ancient Pangaea. Think tyrannosaur, except larger, armored like the club-tailed Ankylosaurus, and with proportionately sized arms. Very intelligent, immortal(as far as age), fought many battles over the five million years of his reign.

In the story's prologue, he's hunting down a rogue spirit. Sometimes these spirits just lose their way or maybe something external turned it all dark and sinister. Anyway, it's a spirit of corruption, and deathly corruption at that. It possesses the corpse of a slain sauropod. Sauropods, for those who don't recognize the term, are the giant long-necked dinosaurs.

The two fight, and ultimately die. The Cretaceous ends, their spirits are trapped underground. 65 million years later, events conspire to awaken these spirits. Each "possesses" the body of a man. They do it in different ways, though: Gresh basically "eats" the soul of the man he possesses, whereas the King merges with Ash's spirit in what ultimately ends up being a consensual fusion.

The villain, Gresh, looks something like a zombie Undertaker: rotted flesh, clad in black, nasty smile. But, in the final battle with the hero, he is badly damaged and basically melts. Then, one by one, his undead legions cast themselves into the quivering mass of gelatinous dead flesh, and it begins to grow.

Ultimately, Gresh turns into a huge monster something like a sauropod, like the form he wore back in the Mesozoic. Long neck, horned head, but built even more powerfully than your typical sauropod, since he's stronger than he was. At one point the King rips off his head(which he defeated the monster before with), but then the entire front half of Gresh splits and ribs shift to form vertical jaws with horizontally-lined rib-fangs. It adopts a bulldog-like stance.

This thing is huge, too. Sixty, seventy tons, easily. The largest dinosaur was Argentinosaurus, weighing in at 100 tons(or more!), and this thing is nearly that size. Like a dragon, Gresh breathes fire, a black flame that burns like fire and melts like acid. Very powerful, a real monster. He's pushed into this form after gettin' into a slugfest with Ash, and then the two battle in the smoking ruins of this little mountain town.

Now one thing I always figured about the hero/dinosaur/phoenix is this: dinosaurs evolved into birds, right?. It's fact, it was proven long ago. Specifically, it was the theropod dinosaurs(T-rex, "raptors," Coelurosaurus, etc.) that evolved. What would the mystical King of dinosaurs evolve into? A Phoenix makes the most sense, doesn't it?

So it might make sense that the spirit of the King, trapped below ground after his physical body was destroyed, might evolve over time. When it joins with Ash, a human, the evolution is completed and made manifest.

And don't worry 'bout Harry Potter, folks. This Phoenix would be a giant bird of golden fire and thunder, similar in size to the King's dinosaur form(which stood ten meters high). And while he's intelligent, he has lost absolutely none of his primal ferocity, the savage theropod lust for battle. Facing his polar opposite, a creature of eternal death, the King knows but a single way to proceed: kill or be killed.

*****

And just because, here're some lyrics I always think of when I think of the transformation, from "Wait and Bleed" by Slipknot:

I wipe it off on a tile, the light is brighter this time
Everything is turning blasphemy
My eyes are red and gold, the hair is standing straight up
This is not the way I pictured me

I can't control my shakes, how the hell did I get here?
Something about this, so very wrong
I have to laugh out loud, I wish I didn't like this
Is it a dream or a memory?


Fitting aesthetically, as well, because Ash's eyes burn with a red-gold light when he's angry or powered-up.

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yaghish

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Sep 14 07 5:38 AM

If you can't decide, you might look into mythology for another creature that has the best of both sides. There might be some, but I can't think of one right now (some kind of winged worm, where the worm is a symbol for rebirth and eternity).

BTW: the Phoenix has, IMHO, something mystic and holy. I think it's an old symbol for Jesus Christ, too. And there's only one Phoenix in classic mythology, it's not a species. The loneliness of the Phoenix is an issue in some stories.
And that one bird can't die. So, according to mythology, you can't turn into "a" Phoenix. And if, it's a very heavy theme you put on the shoulders of your hero.
Of course, you write fiction so you change some facts, but an altered Phoenix is to me not as cool als the one and only Phoenix.

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8281220

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#5 [url]

Sep 15 07 1:16 AM

I like the idea Bruce.

I think the Phoenix is a really good way to go in your tale. It keeps the two sides separate as they evolve too which is a nice imagary. I think it works on a number of different levels.

As for there being one Phoenix - in our mythology maybe - but this is your world so go for your life.

You're already covering the giant lizard/dragon angle with the bad guy and your theory regarding evolution is sound so why not a giant bird?

Good luck

"Talent is cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work." - Stephen King

Associate Editor for HorrorScope

Follow me as I progress through the Advanced Diploma of Arts for Professional Writing at my blog:
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#6 [url]

Sep 17 07 8:21 AM

Fiction, BT, Yaghish, thanks for the encouragement!

I believe I will go for it. It won't require too much of an alteration, pretty much all cosmetic, and I think it will take the story in a rather exciting direction.

Heh, of course anyone who is interested is welcome to critique the story when it's finished, which should be soon now. I think a big, badass phoenix is the way to go...

A seething tempest drowns the blasted ruins of a once-thriving mountain town. Black fire scours the land, a demonic flame no water can extinguish.

I was too weak to give in, too strong to lose
My heart is under arrest again, but I break loose
My head is giving me life or death, but I can't choose
I swear I'll never give in, I'll refuse
Is someone getting the best of you?

--Foo Fighters, "Best of You"

A young man lies broken and bloody at the feet of a rotting giant, a monster of gangrenous roiling flesh the size of a grocery store.

Remembering all he's been through, the hideous fate of so many damned souls, and countless more to follow, Ash rises to his feet. Trembling with the effort, he cranes his head back to scream up at the monster, his voice the echoing crack of thunder, the keening wail of a giant bird.

His cobalt blue eyes fade into a miasma of golden fire, casting a warm glow over the darkened street. Ash's body is consumed from within by the same electric flame, erupting as a shining pillar into the night. He staggers forth, ferns and cycads and other prehistoric plants springing up in his wake.

The ground rumbles as if trampled by a herd of the mighty thunder lizards. Ash rises into the sky, a living carpet of green spreading out over broken asphalt below. The fire explodes into a roaring miniature sun, blasting shadows away for miles.

In the midst of the golden nova, a shape appears. Giant wings unfurl, lightning-bolt feathers crackle and dart. A long, flowing tail trails above the ground as the bird rises. His crown of red flame matches the fire streaming from his eyes.

Twenty meters from wingtip to wingtip, the King screams his rage into the sky...

(While the actual story is written in past-tense, the above is still a fairly good represenation of what it'll be like. Better quality in the actual story, though.)

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#8 [url]

Sep 17 07 10:01 AM

Denied the chance to post the actual story(for now), I'll have to pass the time with another little character profile.


X, Xandrokil(I don't know how to get the little dots above the "o"), "the Green Death"; real name unknown

Born in a distant solar system, the alien who calls himself "X" in our language was once a proud king. He ruled over a vast kingdom on a world where magic lifeblood ran strong through the planet's veins. X himself was possessed of tremendous physical and psychic power, and his magic prowess was unheard of even in his world.

Though wracked by the occasional destructive wars of its inhabitants, the planet was a lush, idyllic paradise. Under X's long rule, his kingdom flourished and brought great wonders to the world.

Seventy million years ago, an unforeseen eclipse heralded the tragic fate of the planet Alauran. No one knows where the monster came from--it appeared from the depths of space, blotting out the sun. A monster planet, black and twisted and devoid of life... but itself a hideous mockery thereof.

Not even the mightiest magics could harm the monster, which crushed and devoured the entire planet. The king's incredible prowess had caught the monster's attention, and for him it reserved a special fate. The king was bound to its tainted life force, becoming himself a dark inversion of his true body and soul. While his master lived, X would never die.

X called the monster "Shard," for it had truly broken his entire existence into shards. When a planet's Elder spirit--the creator of a world's life--dies along with the physical world, all souls fade into oblivion with that Elder. X had doomed his entire world not just to death, but complete oblivion. As if they never existed.

For eons, X wandered space in the shadow of his master, forced to live with his guilt. When they found a thriving world, immortal X would descend and conquer it. Holy artifacts, mystic rituals, advanced technology... whatever Shard deemed worthy X took from the dead civilizations. Shard's dark magic bound these things as well, providing X with an unfathomable array of weapons and vehicles, knowledge and power.

Five million years since his "rebirth," X was given a doubly-cruel task. Shard's visions had seen far away, to a blue planet to be later called Earth. There lived a beast, the King, his life-force flush and strong. Though X never knew why, Shard wished the distant King destroyed. Even such a monster's dreams were haunted by the eyes of the King.

X saw a vital King ruling over a savage yet beautiful world, not unlike the king he'd once been. He saw a King cut down in the prime of life, just as he had been cut down. But resistance was impossible, and so he sent a massive asteroid summoned through dark ritual hurtling at the Earth.

As the asteroid drew near, its potent energies bolstered the fell spirits of Pangaea. The King lived not to see the impact, because he died in battle against one of the strongest of those spirits. The asteroid impact only jarred their entombed spirits, even as it reshaped the land and wiped out the King's brothers and sisters, and many more.

Content having personally seen the King die, X returned to his master and learned that Shard would travel to Earth. "He" would devour the planet and its Elder spirit, as he had done countless times, gaining in power and hatred for all proper living things.

X is his vanguard, sent to corrupt and weaken, locate the sources of greatest power. The alien takes on many forms, from human to monstrous hybrids of machine and beast. Long life and incredible psychic powers grant him super-human intelligence. Adding to that, X is perhaps the most puissant wizard in the universe. He can lay entire countries low with a single spell.

Though he feels remorse for his actions, X nonetheless carries them out with sadistic glee thanks to his master's influence. He has given up resisting, as he did in the early millennia. Nothing can even harm Shard, let alone destroy it, and without such X's fate is forever sealed. Should he ever encounter a force with the potential to free him, X would do his best to defy his master's wishes.

The rebirth of the King in the twenty-first century is the first spark of such a miracle. From the black sea of stars, X senses the King and returns to Earth to finish an ancient score. He commands an army of mutated and magically-warped alien creatures and deadly machines.

Thus begins the first of their many battles... and all the while, monstrous Shard draws closer to Earth.

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#9 [url]

Sep 20 07 8:54 AM

'Course, in that first encounter X doesn't just invade with an army of unstoppable death-machines. He's a master manipulator, and does so from the very beginning. The second story, should I ever finish the first, sees X infiltrate and corrupt L.A. law enforcement and City Hall.

(Heh, I know what you're thinking: a little late, X. But he makes it worse, turning the sadistic police chief into a real monster, for example.)

He exposes the city to its self-professed hero, a supernatural hunter called "the White Wolf," among other things, and turns the people against him. X engineers a great many clandestine murders and creates havoc within the legal system, leading to riots and worse. Definitely one of those "cowardly" villains that hide behind the scenes and typically avoid confrontation... but when you catch up to him, you'll wish you hadn't.

X is the King's true nemesis, the Capone to his Ness, the King Ghidorah to his Godzilla, the Megatron to his Optimus Prime(I'm such a dork). The bringer of his people's extinction. Their many conflicts cooked up over the years are legendary(in my mind), and thus throughout the series he will be a foil. Though his body is often destroyed, X always reforms and returns. In their first encounter, even the King can't stop X by himself.

In this spirit I introduce the second super-powered hero to join forces with Ash the King. Right now, his working name is "Joseph Silver," the last short for "Silverhawk" or something like that. The son of an American businessman and a Native American woman, his father bailed on them both before he was born. His mother died when he was only five, but by then his life had been irrevocably changed.

Silver's grandfather passed down a legendary heritage to his grandson. One of their ancestors, the tale goes, was a mighty chief of an Algonquian tribe lost to history. The people had suffered a long, brutal winter, and famine was setting in. As if that wasn't bad enough, reports surfaced of dwindling wildlife, disappearing hunters and trees sporting marks from claws and fangs. In the midst of the season's worst blizzard, the tribe's worst fears were realized.

A cannibalistic spirit some call the "Wendigo" appeared from the forest depths. It had killed and consumed nearly all living things for miles around. It came howling into the village in the dead of night and set upon the people with tooth and claw. Spears, arrows, nothing hurt the beast. They couldn't stop it from devouring all of them, one by one. Those who fled into the blizzard were lost or chased down.

Finally, it came down to the wizened chief, last survivor of the village. He faced the Wendigo with fire in his heart, but he was unable to harm it. Ready to die with honor, he saw a striking vision emerge from the woods.

It was a great wolf with a pure white coat; the chief thought at first it was a spirit come to guide him to eternity, but then the wolf spoke to him. It was the only survivor of a pack that had been decimated by the Wendigo, and the only other survivor of its attacks, period. The wolf offered to join, body and soul, with the chief and lend him its strength. Together, they could seek vengeance for their people.

And so the chief accepted, and in a blinding flash of light the two were replaced by one. The chief's wisdom and spiritual strength combined with the speed, senses and pure instincts of the wolf. He was a man, yet he could also become the White Wolf, whose eyes blazed so bright no evil could hide from his gaze. And the White Wolf tore the Wendigo apart and sent its foul spirit shuffling to its fate.

Afterward, he traveled far and wide before finding a place to settle down. And he guarded it, and when the people spoke of a great Wolf that haunted the night, those in the know were relieved to hear the howls marking another kill. Eventually, he passed this spiritual legacy on to his grandson, who passed it to his grandson, and so on.

Before his mother died, she took Silver to meet his aging grandfather.

Enter the modern day White Wolf. Young, brash, taking after his father in looks and his mother in heart, Silver has the potential to become the greatest Wolf in history. He's not yet met a challenge like the one he's about to face, though, with both the King and X the alien coming to town. Silver has the speed and the skill, but those might not save him if he does not come to terms with his destiny as the White Wolf.

In terms of actual "powers," the White Wolf has quite a few. Foremost is his great speed, faster than any living thing can conceive of moving unaided. Pushing himself, he could probably keep pace(in Wolf form) with our fastest jet fighters. Arguably his greatest power is that, like the King, he has a powerful ability to sense and confront supernatural menaces, including those of a more ethereal nature. Where Ash is power and durability, Silver's bread-and-butter is speed and agility. He is strong, and Ash is quite agile, but neither matches the other's strengths. That also makes them devastating as a team.

Whew! That should do it, for now. Next I think I'll detail Iris, the first story's other main character(and the main reason Ash survives the story!).

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#11 [url]

May 30 08 1:41 AM

"phoenix" being a bird implies a kind of evolution, which may not fit with the themes you want to adress, where a plain dragon implies more like stagnation. If the spirit is truly reborn, than a phoenix would work better.

And the river of the mind runs free
Leaves nought in its wake but serenity
From a slient spring of transluscent sheen
Slip silver songs of crystal carved
By the hand of water's queen

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#12 [url]

Jun 8 08 10:25 AM

Sunhawk, you'd be pleased, then: the effects of death and rebirth are well-described in the story. 65 million years without a body, slumbering fitfully, waking to find a world changing, hairless monkeys trodding all over his domain... to say the least, it tortures the King. He exists in stagnation, unable to grow and change and live as mortals should. Even after he rises originally and possesses Ash the human's body, the King is full of rage and pain at his own suffering, the planet's, and the loss of his kingdom.

And then of course there is the soul-battle. The King possesses a dying Ash's body, and then goes to fight Gresh, the villain. He is summarily defeated, being disoriented after so long without flesh, plus the radical change from 20-ton theropod to little "weakling" mammal. Left for dead, deep within the inert "corpse" the spirit of Ash and the King's spirit war for control. They eventually reach an agreement, and the King lets go his immeasurable pain. The result? He evolves after being spiritually stagnant for so long, becoming the Phoenix. Ash evolves as well, spiritually joining with the Phoenix: Ash the King.

So, Ilasir, you hit the nail on the head: the rebirth and phoenix evolution themes perfectly encapsulate my story. I suppose the main theme boils down to the "tenacity of life," or perhaps "Life springs eternal, even in the face of death."

It doesn't matter where: life exists everywhere on Earth. The most hostile environments thrive with living beings. There have been multiple mass extinctions which wiped out 90+% of life on Earth, and yet every time it bounces back with new diversity, such as you see today. Life appeared very early on Earth, further proving that if it is possible at all for it to exist, even the slightest niche of which to take advantage, life will appear. It will stay and prosper, evolving in wondrous ways that even our best science and technology can't match.

That is the Life which Ash represents, the one flame that cannot be snuffed. The villain is basically corrupted Death itself, ever the bane of the living. When it's finished, their battle will be huge.

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